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Ohio_Man
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Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Tue May 05, 2020 2:07 am

Despite COVID 19 I want to restore and preserve the Deer park fire siren. Sharonville, Blue Ash, Reading,Glendale, and West Chester no longer have their fire sirens so this one's kind of special. It was also placed in service in 1923 when Betty White was 1 year old.

I can handle rust and am aware the siren probably has lead paint, but has anyone here ever rebuilt a siren?

I've replaced brushes and motor cores in RC cars but I don't know if those skills scale up to the bigger motors.

I have a few questions about this:
A) am I just wasting time and should contract Werden or LTEX rebuild it?
B) Should the siren need parts (Ie Bearings) would Ebay be enough or is there some siren part black market where sirens that don't pass tests get their organs harvested?
C) is a $300 dollar budget (and I have plenty of time) reasonable?
D)what are the power requirements for a sterling M10?


Any advice/input/ stories about when you restored a siren are appreciated.
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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Wed May 06, 2020 11:41 am

Ohio_Man wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:07 am
Despite COVID 19 I want to restore and preserve the Deer park fire siren. Sharonville, Blue Ash, Reading,Glendale, and West Chester no longer have their fire sirens so this one's kind of special. It was also placed in service in 1923 when Betty White was 1 year old.

I can handle rust and am aware the siren probably has lead paint, but has anyone here ever rebuilt a siren?

I've replaced brushes and motor cores in RC cars but I don't know if those skills scale up to the bigger motors.

I have a few questions about this:
A) am I just wasting time and should contract Werden or LTEX rebuild it?
B) Should the siren need parts (Ie Bearings) would Ebay be enough or is there some siren part black market where sirens that don't pass tests get their organs harvested?
C) is a $300 dollar budget (and I have plenty of time) reasonable?
D)what are the power requirements for a sterling M10?



Any advice/input/ stories about when you restored a siren are appreciated.

Need more info.
Are you restoring this for your collection or to be reused by the owner?
If you are doing it for them, what's your liability if you damage it in a way it can't be repaired and has to be replaced? A new siren is in the tens of thousands of dollars.
If you are repairing / restoring it for them and they expect to get it back working, then call a professional. That way THEY take on the liability of damaging it beyond repair and have to replace it.

As far as bearings. I would figure out if it needs them before figuring out a source. But Bearings are not a crazy expensive item. Neither are brushes. Bearings will typically have a manufactures part number. And brushes (if it has any) can be sourced from carbonbrushes.com.

As far as budget of 300 bucks. That may be more than enough, and it may not be anywhere close. It's going to depend on what it needs to be repaired. If it's a clean up and paint, it's fine. If the motor needs rewound, you're not even close. It could be over $1000 depending on the motor shop to get a motor rewound.

Power requirements.
Here again, don't know. Does the motor have 3 wires or two wires?
If you have access to the facility that it was installed in I would look at the circuit breaker that fed it. It will have either 2 spaces filled like a breaker for a dryer or oven in a house or it will have 3 spaces taken up. If it's got 3 spaces taken up in the breaker panel it's 3 phase and you open up a whole new can of worms trying to power it up at home.

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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Thu May 07, 2020 5:16 am

I was planning on restoring it and donating it to the historical society.

As for Liability the city doesn't care. The city manager said a scrapper called about it, promised to take care of it and 5 years later it's still there. If I can get the siren off the roof it's mine no charge. As for how I get it down that's on me.

So I could just paint the thing and let the society use it as a static display.
But the siren would have more appeal if it ran.

All it needs that I can see from the ground is a cosmetic cover.

I know $300 would take care of sanding and painting it (I know how to weld so I could make a replacement cosmetic cover for <$30) but as for the mechanical side I've replaced motor bearings and brushes before In smaller motors.

If the thing needed rewinding I'd see if I could pull a motor from werden electric's collection or the identical Sterling M10 in pleasant ridge that is also no longer used. During the 2013/14 siren meetup I noticed what was left of a sterling at werden on 4j25's blog or YouTube channel. (I can't remember, was that already 7 years ago?)

Now I haven't been inside the old fire station (it's now a car barn for the city) so I can't see the breaker or controller. I'm thinking of calling the joint fire district and asking them if they know anything or If I could look while someone watched.

Considering the M10 is a 10hp siren (apparently that's what the 10 in M10 means or I've been tricked) I'd presume it's three phase.

As for power requirements my local makerspace has three phase power. God knows what it used to be but apparently they can power 4 lathes, three welders, a plasma cutter the size of my kitchen table and more without causing a brown out.

I was thinking next month I could ask the fire department to test the thing with the rest of Hamilton county's system.

Imagine that, a 97 year old Sterling sounding off with 8 year old 2001's and 128's and maybe an I force. (Does NW Hamilton county still have I forces?)
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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Fri May 08, 2020 1:00 am

Northwest Hamilton County never had iForces... but there are two E-Classes along the riverfront downtown.

Is this siren you're restoring the Sterling M that was on top of the Deer Park fire station/village hall in recent years?
Resident of a county with big a mixture of sirens, but in the process of being replaced. :(

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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Sat May 09, 2020 4:18 am

carexpertandy wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:00 am
Northwest Hamilton County never had iForces... but there are two E-Classes along the riverfront downtown.

Is this siren you're restoring the Sterling M that was on top of the Deer Park fire station/village hall in recent years?
You're right about the I forces not sure what I was thinking. I knew we had voice sirens from ASC somewhere.

Yes It is the deer park sterling Model M10. It's still on top of the old station. It hasn't been used since I've been born (1999) and I doubt it has ever received any service beyond painting. It's historically significant to the town as it's 97 years old, served as their WWII air raid siren, fire siren and probably their tornado siren for the day of the killer tornadoes in 1974.

It should be preserved and I never had a siren before. I can have it for free if I can get it down and I did just get my stimulus check.

I know I should save the check but saving starts with S siren starts with S it's close enough.

In all seriousness It will probably either go to the historical society joint fire district or another museum when it is done.
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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Sun May 10, 2020 3:50 am

I assume you are referring to the siren in this link below?

https://goo.gl/maps/Exgx86NbowQ7ZBdN9

This siren was considered to be a part of Hamilton County's system until the system was upgraded within the last decade. Are you saying that it hasn't been working since at least 1999, and the City of Deer Park did not bother to fix it? Some old siren maps by the Hamilton County EMA from the 2000s decade had shown that siren on the maps. You can see those maps from recent posts in the "Cincinnati Metropolitan Area Sirens" thread. The link below is a map made by Ian Murr (murrfarms) based on a survery by ASC of Hamilton County's sirens in 2002. Notice that the Deer Park siren was #150 in the system.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ms ... 58594&z=11

I also noticed that you mentioned "Sharonville, Blue Ash, Reading, Glendale, and West Chester no longer have their fire sirens." However, Glendale still has a red Model 5 inside the tower of their fire station. This was their severe weather siren before the new T-128 in town was installed, but knowing that the Model 5 was painted red (the general color of fire sirens) and mounted inside a tower at the station like many typical fire sirens or fire bells, this was most likely their fire siren. I believe several sirens in Hamilton County's system were also used as fire sirens at the same time. This seemed to be the case for Forest Park's old 2T22 and STH-10.
Resident of a county with big a mixture of sirens, but in the process of being replaced. :(

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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Sun May 17, 2020 3:03 am

carexpertandy wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:50 am
I assume you are referring to the siren in this link below?

https://goo.gl/maps/Exgx86NbowQ7ZBdN9

This siren was considered to be a part of Hamilton County's system until the system was upgraded within the last decade. Are you saying that it hasn't been working since at least 1999, and the City of Deer Park did not bother to fix it? Some old siren maps by the Hamilton County EMA from the 2000s decade had shown that siren on the maps. You can see those maps from recent posts in the "Cincinnati Metropolitan Area Sirens" thread. The link below is a map made by Ian Murr (murrfarms) based on a survery by ASC of Hamilton County's sirens in 2002. Notice that the Deer Park siren was #150 in the system.
Yep that first link is the siren.

I asked the person at the front desk in town hall about it. They later sent me an email saying the following:

"It appears that the siren was installed circa 1923. It was used as a fire alarm to call the firemen to the station; and also a World War II air raid drill siren. It was still operable when the Deer Park Fire Dept moved down the street in April of 1999. It has not been activated since that year (1999), however."

In 1999 that siren from 1923 would have been 76, and I figured Hamilton county wasn't interested in using a siren that old. Not to mention there was a thunderbolt on Silverton's municipal building and one by Trader Joes that were within audible range and a lot newer.

Fun fact, in the town hall is a picture of the first fire station from either 1928 or 29. In that picture is the entire roster of fire equipment, and the siren in the steeple looking part of the building.

carexpertandy wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:50 am
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ms ... 58594&z=11

I also noticed that you mentioned "Sharonville, Blue Ash, Reading, Glendale, and West Chester no longer have their fire sirens." However, Glendale still has a red Model 5 inside the tower of their fire station. This was their severe weather siren before the new T-128 in town was installed, but knowing that the Model 5 was painted red (the general color of fire sirens) and mounted inside a tower at the station like many typical fire sirens or fire bells, this was most likely their fire siren. I believe several sirens in Hamilton County's system were also used as fire sirens at the same time. This seemed to be the case for Forest Park's old 2T22 and STH-10.
I was told by a former resident that the siren used to be on a pole out back. I drove by when I heard about it but I couldn't find anything. Either way I'm happy that siren still exists. Maybe they were thinking of another station? Or maybe they saw a tornado siren near a firestation and they thought "oh that fire siren."

Either way I'm going to call the fire department soon and ask about going into the old deer park fire station. We should be able to tell if the siren was part of Hamilton county's system by if it has a telephone activated relay right?

I remember in the day of the killer tornadoes (1978 civil defense documentary) that Cincinnati's sirens were activated by phone. At 5:03 The civil defense man says that he's going to sounds the sirens. then he does with a rotary phone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LwgNkm0n28

also at 4:42 you can see the old system map.

I also could be wrong. I Do know that if the siren has only manual activation than it was probably just a fire and air raid siren. If it has two tone/telephone activation then it would be part of the system.
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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Sun May 17, 2020 3:52 am

Ohio_Man wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 3:03 am
Either way I'm going to call the fire department soon and ask about going into the old deer park fire station. We should be able to tell if the siren was part of Hamilton county's system by if it has a telephone activated relay right?

I remember in the day of the killer tornadoes (1978 civil defense documentary) that Cincinnati's sirens were activated by phone. At 5:03 The civil defense man says that he's going to sounds the sirens. then he does with a rotary phone.
Hamilton County’s system was upgraded to radio activation via ASC CompuLert in the late 90s. With that being the case, the majority of sirens had a small gray box with the blue American Signal logo on it, and a black receiver antenna with an X-shaped object in the middle. This type of antenna can be seen mounted with any T-128 and 2001 installation in Hamilton County, and likely any old siren still standing.
Resident of a county with big a mixture of sirens, but in the process of being replaced. :(

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Re: Siren rebuilding advice Wanted.

Mon May 18, 2020 3:43 am

carexpertandy wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 3:52 am
Ohio_Man wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 3:03 am
Either way I'm going to call the fire department soon and ask about going into the old deer park fire station. We should be able to tell if the siren was part of Hamilton county's system by if it has a telephone activated relay right?

I remember in the day of the killer tornadoes (1978 civil defense documentary) that Cincinnati's sirens were activated by phone. At 5:03 The civil defense man says that he's going to sounds the sirens. then he does with a rotary phone.
Hamilton County’s system was upgraded to radio activation via ASC CompuLert in the late 90s. With that being the case, the majority of sirens had a small gray box with the blue American Signal logo on it, and a black receiver antenna with an X-shaped object in the middle. This type of antenna can be seen mounted with any T-128 and 2001 installation in Hamilton County, and likely any old siren still standing.
Thanks for the info. When my grandpa worked at mobilcomm I saw a few boxes with ASC on them but didn't think about them at time. They were probably for Clermont county.

I find it interesting that they upgraded the controls but not the sirens themselves. On Monday I'll call the non emergency number and ask them about going in the station. Deer park is redoing all of their roads so public works is busy but the fire district may find the time. Heck If I could pay them to get it down with their ladder truck that would be great.

I'll also probably create a new thread for the siren since this one strayed from rebuilding fast.
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