For all you siren buffs out there. Check this out

[loudmouth]

i have to agree with q2bman. it all depends on were you live and times have changed all tho i do find yellow on the back but it allso must have red or blue or both along with yellow and thats allso why trucks and some ambulance have squencal arrow bars on the back to tell the dumb motorist which was to get around the sene by eather useing the right or left or center out lighting affects.

[Whelen Rules]

I agree with q2b. A siren really does need to be left on at all times. I agree the Q does get annoying but it helps. In my opinion I think most people do hear the siren(s) they just don't care. I think an electronic siren 100 or 200 watts is enough if the people don't give a care then get their lisence plate nuumber and report them. Or ambulances also have 2 sirens one left in wail and the other in either yelp or peirce ( we have Whelens). Also more lights the better.

[Robert Gift]

Loud, your ladder truck lightsound good to me. Wigwags are VERY effective, most unexpecting eyes catch them first before anything else.
Red or blue lights in the back are a waste. They should be yellow, which appear much brighter and seen earlier from behind.
You want emergency colors in the front to gethrough intersections and yellow in the back to protecthe parked vehicle.

Tyler, I have a Whelen something, forgot what.
It produces a lower range of siren tone (which I do not like)
but which isupposedly better! Low sounds travel farther than high.
Also, low frequenciesupposedly penetrate vehicles better than high.

Wish I knew more abouthis. Maybe I need to change but I don't like the sound. They are all square waves except the eQ.


Fire departments must stop being envious and wasting taxpayers money.
If members of the department want to purchase a second siren witheir own money, fine. But you only need one sound. Two does not get you
noticed any earlier than one.

(But I recall an interesting effect on the ears when the electronic was on WAIL and the Q was running. [Our's must have been the first ambulance in Denver to have BOTH. As their tones crossed or coincided, my ears "cracked" as though going up in elevation!)

I don't agree at all with anything you are saying! A siren needs to be sounded at all times when responding to an emergency. What about the guy that looks left then right and didn't see your sequential lightbar cause it was inbetween flashes. The guy pulls out in front of you. You going to have time to activate the siren before he get killed?

Good of you to be direct and good points, Q.
If he had a green signal, we start the siren before getting to the intersection --unless we can clearly see no one is present or approaching the intersection. (I have quietly snuck through many intersections that way.)

Also, just yellow in the back may be brighter but red and blue allow motorists to know what they are driving up on. If they see yellow they may think a construction crew is up ahead. Even the construction people here in Texas use red and blue. Makes the motorists think the police are ahead and they slow down.

Police witheir red and blue get hit from behind. Does not matter who is there, yellow better displays that something is there so DON'T HIT ME!
It should be illegal for construction or anyone else to display red and blue and portray themselves as law enforcement!

The q siren is only on for a few seconds and in total, what a five min response time. People can't be bothere for five mins to make the road safer. Give me a break. Be loud and save lives!

We get too dependent upon the siren and assume drivers hear it - when they don't.
Better to drive thinking that they don't hear it.
And yes, it bothers me when I am home after a 24-hour shift, needing sleep, when a siren is being needlessly sounded and awakens me.

Also, the more lights the better. Some portions of your vehicle may be blocked by trees, cars, buildings, etc. More light will be seen. Synced lights were proven ineffective in the eighties! That's why they are not made anylonger. LED lighting is somethime synced as you mentioned but they have strobe type flash patterns to get attention.

The more lights the better IF COORDINATED!
Of all the fancy patterns,(which I find fun and interesting) the all on/all off is the most effective at catching the unexpecting eye.
A myriad of lights just blend together ando not create the contrasting "snap" which better draws the unexpecting eye.
Remember, when you and I are looking for it, the patterns are more interesting. But when not looking for it, they are LESS effective.

And wig-wags are only effective at moving people to the right. They do almost nothing for intersection warning.

Yes, do not shine towards the sides so do little for cross-traffic.
But for on-coming and same direction vehicles they are most often noticed BEFORE the overhead lights!
In mid trip, we had a relay burn out, turning off the lightbar.
(I wired the indicator light from the relay output, so, though the switch was on, the indicator went dark when the relay failed.)
Wig-wags still cleared traffic. They are bigger and brighter than anythig else. You would have approved - Thatime I kept WAIL constantly on!

The dual siren tones used by our ambulance service are very attention getting. One stays on wail for distant warning and one on yelp for up close warning.

Why switch to a less percieved sound?
WAIL is better, no matter far or near. Some peoples' brains just do not
perceive YELP or other quicky-changing sounds as well as WAIL. As though the brain needs a little time to "read" the frequency, but it has already changed by the time we "grasp" it.

The cracking noise you refered too is produced as well and moves traffic.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. That was the effect on OUR ears in the ambulance because we were so close to the sound sources.
(It was not loud at all in the cab, but we still felt the effect!)

It has been my experience that fast multi pattern strobe lights move traffic. I would always switch to a slow alternateing patter when stationary.

We should turn OFF EVERYTHING but 4-way flashers and yellow lights when parked. Then less drivers will mistake a stopped EV trying to gethrough an intersection as PARKED. Also saves wear and tear on emergency lights, (they get dimmer the more used) and saves fuel.
Morelectrical demand means morengine load means more fuel.
(Am I cheap or what?!) It adds up!

People observing you from a distance can judge you location better with a slower pattern. People driving down the road comming in contact with an emergency vehicle need quick bright patterns to grab attention. And most need a slap in the face for not knowing what to do or just not careing.

Most people care, except Mexicans. Others are sometimes unsure whathey shouldo. Women especially are bad at reacting and slowing and stopping.
I should have reported that Wyoming woman who had 5 seconds to see the EV in the middle of the street waiting at the edge of her lane and kept on going. (What did she need, WRITTENOTICE?!) [Maybe MY MISTAKE:
I probably should have continued and crossed in front of her, but I didn't want to panic her.]

Thought she was TEXAN so forgave her.
Texas pickup truck license plates read "truck" so they knowhat it is.
Aggies place their College Diplomas in the rear window to gain Handicapped Parking!!

[q2bman]

Loud, your ladder truck lightsound good to me. Wigwags are VERY effective, most unexpecting eyes catch them first before anything else.
Red or blue lights in the back are a waste. They should be yellow, which appear much brighter and seen earlier from behind.
You want emergency colors in the front to gethrough intersections and yellow in the back to protecthe parked vehicle.

Tyler, I have a Whelen something, forgot what.
It produces a lower range of siren tone (which I do not like)
but which isupposedly better! Low sounds travel farther than high.
Also, low frequenciesupposedly penetrate vehicles better than high.

Wish I knew more abouthis. Maybe I need to change but I don't like the sound. They are all square waves except the eQ.


Fire departments must stop being envious and wasting taxpayers money.
If members of the department want to purchase a second siren witheir own money, fine. But you only need one sound. Two does not get you
noticed any earlier than one.

(But I recall an interesting effect on the ears when the electronic was on WAIL and the Q was running. [Our's must have been the first ambulance in Denver to have BOTH. As their tones crossed or coincided, my ears "cracked" as though going up in elevation!)

I don't agree at all with anything you are saying! A siren needs to be sounded at all times when responding to an emergency. What about the guy that looks left then right and didn't see your sequential lightbar cause it was inbetween flashes. The guy pulls out in front of you. You going to have time to activate the siren before he get killed?

Good of you to be direct and good points, Q.
If he had a green signal, we start the siren before getting to the intersection --unless we can clearly see no one is present or approaching the intersection. (I have quietly snuck through many intersections that way.)

Well, that would be fine as long as you are prepared to stop. If some idiot hits you it his fault for running a red light!

Also, just yellow in the back may be brighter but red and blue allow motorists to know what they are driving up on. If they see yellow they may think a construction crew is up ahead. Even the construction people here in Texas use red and blue. Makes the motorists think the police are ahead and they slow down.

Police witheir red and blue get hit from behind. Does not matter who is there, yellow better displays that something is there so DON"T HIT ME! It should be illegal for construction or anyone else to use red and blue and portray themselves as law enforcement!

The red and blue are not to keep people from hitting them but to identify the situation. The "construction" vehicles i spoke of are actually Department of Transportation personell and they are not trying to be police. Texas has studied this ans drivers slow down when they aee red and blue for fear of a citation. Works. Keeps people safe.

The q siren is only on for a few seconds and in total, what a five min response time. People can't be bothere for five mins to make the road safer. Give me a break. Be loud and save lives!

We get too dependent upon the siren.
We tooften assume drivers hear it - when they don't.
Better to drive with attitude that they don't hear it.
And yes, it bothers me when I am home after a 24-hour shift, needing sleep, when a siren is being needlessly sounded and awakens me.

EV, as you put it, should not be dependant on anything but brakes to keep people safe at intersections. But any equipment that helps warn motorists of on comming emergency vehicles that is installed on emergency vehicle should be used. Warn the public. Sound attracts the eyes and the eys see the lights. I don't agree with anyone who depends on the warning equipment. It's only their to help.

Also, the more lights the better. Some portions of your vehicle may be blocked by trees, cars, buildings, etc. More light will be seen. Synced lights were proven ineffective in the eighties! That's why they are not made anylonger. LED lighting is somethime synced as you mentioned but they have strobe type flash patterns to get attention.

But of all the fancy patterns,(which I find fun and interesting) the all on/all off is the most effective at catching the unexpecting eye.
A myraid of lights just blend together ando not create the contrasting "snap" which better draws the unexpecting eye.
Remember, when you and I are looking for it, the patterns are more interesting. But when not, they are LESS effective.

Not true. Studdies have shown randome flashes of light attract better than simple on and off. CCalled the "moth" effect. Cause of a mothes attraction to a flickering flame. That's why strobes flash instead of blink on and off. Simple "chaseing" flash patterns are less effective than ramdom flashes. Mixed signals of fast rotators and slow rotators are better. Non syncronized stobes/leds are more effective than the simple alternateing pattern.

And wig-wags are only effective at moving people to the right. They do almost nothing for intersection warning.

They are most often noticed BEFORE the overhead lights!
We had a relay burn out in mid trip, turning off the lightbar.
(I wired the indicator light from the relay output, so, though the switch was on, the indicator went out when the relay failed.)
Wig-wags still cleared traffic. They are bigger and brighter than anythig else. Yes, do not shine towards the sides so do little for cross-traffic.
That time I kept WAIL constantly on .

Wig wags are great. I love them. Try and find a more noticeable warning light. But, its only noticable to on comming traffic or traffic you are following. They have to have time to notice them.They do not "grab" you attention but if you happen to see them they are noticeable. Does that make any sense. I can't find the words!





Why switch to a less percieved sound?
WAIL is better, no matter far or near. Some peoples' brains just do not
perceive YELP or other quicky changing sounds as well as WAIL. As though the brain needs a little time to "read" the frequency, but it has already changed by the time we "grasp" it.

Dissagree. Wail is great for distance warning while yelp is beter for close warning. The same frequency range. And you don't need time to notice a scary sound. Wail might be better in your experience because it more than likely has beter penetration through vehicle insilation.





Sorry, I should have been more clear. That was the effect on OUR ears in the ambulance because we were so close to the sound sources.
(It was not loud at all in the cab, but we still felt the effect!)

I know exactly what you're talking about. I love that sound!



We should turn OFF everything but 4-way flashers and yellow lights when parked. Then less drivers will mistake a stopped EV trying to gethrough an intersection as PARKED. Also saves wear and tear on emergency lights, (they get dimmer the more used) and saves fuel.
(Am I cheap or what?!)

You are cheap! Bad plan. Imagine the rear end collisions. If idiots allread hit EVs with all the lights on.



Most people care, except Mexicans. Others are sometime unsure whathey shouldo. Women especially are bad at reacting and slowing and stopping.
I should have reported that Wyoming woman who had 5 seconds to see the EV in the middle of the street waiting at the edge of her lane and kept on going.
Thought she was a TEXAN so forgave her.
Texas pickup truck license plates read "truck" so they knowhat it is.
Aggies place their College Diplomas in the rear window to gain Handicapped Parking!!

HA! That was a good one! I agree. But not all people from Mexico are bad drivers. All lazy people that won't take the time to be considerate motorists are bad drivers. That included many countries!

[Robert Gift]

Yah, China drivers are terrible. Most skilledrivers in the world, but terrible.

Another problem with EVs with all their lights on while not moving,
is that drivers become confused.
Partially blinded at night, they are not sure where to go.

If not law enforcment, I would NEVER use an <------>.
If someone heads where your arrow directs, and they have an accident,
they will claim, "They told me to go this way." and you will get sued.
You will win, but spend time and money in court winning your case.
Let law enforcement direct traffic. You protect yourself with yellow lights
NOT yellow strobe lights.

Not true. Studdies have shown randome flashes of light attract better than simple on and off. CCalled the "moth" effect. Cause of a mothes attraction to a flickering flame. That's why strobes flash instead of blink on and off. Simple "chaseing" flash patterns are less effective than ramdom flashes. Mixed signals of fast rotators and slow rotators are better. Non syncronized stobes/leds are more effective than the simple alternateing pattern.

Withuman eyes, (and Texans') all lights coming on together creates a much bigger and brighter IMPACT than many flickering at random. That was certainly noticed when I coordinated the lights in the Code 3 belt-driven lightbar.

Ya know, even BETTER than wigwag is BOTH headlights coming on together and going off together. I installed a switch to change to all or wig-wag.
Keep in wig-wag unless vehicles ahead do not react. Then ALL.

Our lightbar takedown lights are connected to the same wig-wag, so they
are all coordinated.

[loudmouth]

then why do most all fire trucks have the arrows.... and half of the time the law inforcement cant even directs traffic they just stand there and point or just stand there .. mostly they just sit in the cruser while the every one else works.... or its the DPW sets up a porta arrow sign. and if they get in an accdent thats there own dam fault they were paying attion.
no mater what the light there is all ways some one whos gona get attracted to the light and posibly cause a death no mater it be a firemen or woman and emt, police officer, tow truck drive, dpw worker, plow truck driver they all have that problem no mater how many light or sirens or horns there are drivers who dont care will never care or just drivers who should not drive who go out and kill some one while driveing.

[Robert Gift]

then why do most all fire trucks have the arrows....

They are probably city entities and have special city coverage and immunity. We don't have that.

and half of the time the law inforcement cant even directs traffic they just stand there and point or just stand there .. mostly they just sit in the cruser while the every one else works....

Yes. I have complained abouthem standing around doing nothing.
I find it fun and very satisfying getting a traffic backup emptied and vehicles moving again.

One officer parked his cruiser blocking a lefturn lane causing all kinds of back up. He could have parked on the side and left the lanes open.
A big semi had to make quite a detour to travel to where he could turn around to come back and make a righturn. All that time, fuel waste and pollution for nothing. I also sawhere his tires scuffed on the road where he turned. Needless wear and waste.

or its the DPW sets up a porta arrow sign. and if they get in an accdent thats there own dam fault they were paying attion.

Yes, buthey seek anyonelse to blame or SHARE blame.
Then you must spend money and time in court.
EX: A woman pedestrain crosses the RR tracks with mee-mool lights flashing, bells ringing (I don't know if there are gates) and Amtrak at 78 mph blasting horn.

Not enough warning?

She and 2 y/o daughter are killed instantly.
Family is suing the railroad.
It will costhe railroad so much to win the case that they settle out of court.

A father is blaming the railroad because, although there were gates, there was no gate across the sidewalk to prevent his 12 y/o daughter from crossing and being killed. My heart goes out to him, but, sorry, it was HER fault.

no mater what the light there is all ways some one whos gona get attracted to the light and posibly cause a death no mater it be a firemen or woman and emt, police officer, tow truck drive, dpw worker, plow truck driver they all have that problem no mater how many light or sirens or horns there are drivers who dont care will never care or just drivers who should not drive who go out and kill some one while driving.

Yes, there are some terribly incompetent drivers who lack sufficient skills to be on the road. Then you have others who get confused - I have seen some confusing situations, but WHY DIDN'T YOU SLOWAY DOWN
if you weren't sure????

The NFPA is trying to get scene lights reduced to lessen confusion and blinding drivers at night.
Though strobes have a night switch so they are not as bright,
I have NEVER seen it used.

I sent an e-mail to Arapahoe County Sheriff.
We are heading non emergent to a hospital at night.
We crest a rise and see wig-wags and lightbar lights.
I engage R turnsignal and move right and stop.
Two other vehicles follow suit.
Then we all realize ACS pulled over a violator.

Just then, we hear a partial skid of someone looking at the lights
and noticing late thathere are vehicles in his lane. Near rear-ender.

ARS should only have had his rear-facing lights on.
And rather than pull over in traffic lane, why not direct into a parking lot
along the road?
People die because of this poor practice.

[q2bman]

It all boils down to people do not pay attention to what they are doing! That near rear end collision should never have happened. People need to learn to look past the front bumper and leave the cll, radio, and even make-up application alone!

And the lights on a police car do several things for the police. Not just protection from motorists. If the traffic stop goes bad the officer will depend on his lights to help responding officers find his exact location fast. Sometimes, say if a felony stop, stolen car, suspected doper, is stopped police will leave all lights on to aid back-up and to warn public in all directions. If the stop becomes harmeless, like a little old lady instead of a drunk, the front lights will go off. Not all stopes are this way, but many officers practice this. In Texas, most officers will turn off the front lights and reduce the rear lights by 50% and move off of the road when possible.

I think cops, ambulances, and firetrucks should just pull around the trailers with the huge construction arrows on them. Those seem to work ok. People are afraid of hitting those. They would rather hit a fire truck full of water!

[Jim_Ferer]

Years ago, my department had a policy of using the siren all the time.

It's the cars you don't see that are the problem.

[Whelen Rules]

I am a training CERT member and a volunteer. I used to use a 25 watt enforcer siren not loud enough to be heard untill right up on there bumper from Wolo as well as a star 9200 hm light bar. I am in the process of purchasing a Galls 100 watt siren package as well as wig wag head light flashers and 2 yellow tear drop lights for the rear deck 1 on each side. When I arrive on scene I would turn the Mini lightbar off and leave the 2 yellow lights in the rear on and switch over to the 4 way highway hazzard lights( the built in flashing caution lights). Galls sirens are cheap and very effective. We have a police car up here with a galls and the Thunder tone is very unique and effective when in a rush through heavy traffic.