the CICCA siren rabbit hole

[Darley Champion]

nope, just one more thing, that is, whats the diffrence betwheen CEN and KMEurop/KM-Secur ?

That's an excellent question, I know that KMEurop was taken over by Finsécur (who makes fire alarm equipment like panels and sounders) in 2006 and subsequently renamed KM-Sécur.. But that stops there, I don't think they're related to CEN in any shape or form.

I'm thinking that R3Ps and CEN sirens are only related in shape, like the government giving siren blueprints to the companies and telling "yeah so we need you to build a siren following those schematics as a baseline, they must have 8 ports and so on bla bla bla" which could explain why CICCA, CEN and KMEurop sirens look identical with some variance.

Alternatively, once CICCA went belly-up, the tooling got bought out by CEN and subsequently passed onto KMEurop.. Although there's a problem with my theory, my friend's Cicca siren looked just like a Demay R3P just a bit shorter and with a "+" armature in the base (which isn't obvious if you leave the mesh screen on).

So I think that Demay might have taken over Cicca's siren business and refined the sirens over the time. KMEurope probably also succeeded to CEN, but again, that's total speculation.

There's not much info known about PTR and CEN, if we knew more, we could probably piece a timeline..

PTR probably adhered to the sound specifications but didn't follow the baseline schematics.

Of course this is raw insomnia-fueled speculation so maybe I'm completely wrong or right, take this with some "pincettes"

I know that my friend's siren was very similar to a R3P, the base was slightly taller than a CEN and it had the same motor as the Demay R3P though running a bit faster.

Oh and, I remember seeing a very old postal card with a picture of my hometown's city hall, and it shows that the city hall had a different siren on the roof, IF I can find a scan of that picture, I'll try and upload it here so you can see for yourself.

I haven't identified the old siren but it looks like the old Verneuil and Laigneville siren, (short horns with a cone hat), I've only seen this type in Oise.. MAYBE this was a early Chollet-Cicca like you found on Leboncoin, but there's no way to tell unfortunately.

[Dorianelevator]

Regusse looks like to be a KM-1-S, given the size that's the only probability that comes to mind.

The smaller one you found I'm fairly positive it's a KM-0 or KM-0-S, if there's any difference between the "plain" and the "S" variant.

yes, but then, why does it have the same motor as a CEN NP2S siren ? like, this is a NP2S siren motor from the siren in Entrecasteaux :

and this is the motor from the siren in Régusse :

its the same, its THE SAME. so does that mean that the Régusse siren has a remplaced motor ? i dont know, (EDIT : yes, it is a KM1S, definitely.) i just have no idea, also if you want the siren test of both sirens, here :
for Entrecasteaux : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gclXctaRuxw
for Régusse : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLeiQq30GBM
anyways, one more thing, is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTtPV2ZmC0w a KM0, a KM0S or a KM1S ? (i saw the KMSécur page about them)
thats all for this, but there is going to be another post of mine underneath about the CICCA, CEN, KMEurop, PTR and Demay situation.

[Dorianelevator]

nope, just one more thing, that is, whats the diffrence betwheen CEN and KMEurop/KM-Secur ?

That's an excellent question, I know that KMEurop was taken over by Finsécur (who makes fire alarm equipment like panels and sounders) in 2006 and subsequently renamed KM-Sécur.. But that stops there, I don't think they're related to CEN in any shape or form.

I'm thinking that R3Ps and CEN sirens are only related in shape, like the government giving siren blueprints to the companies and telling "yeah so we need you to build a siren following those schematics as a baseline, they must have 8 ports and so on bla bla bla" which could explain why CICCA, CEN and KMEurop sirens look identical with some variance.

Alternatively, once CICCA went belly-up, the tooling got bought out by CEN and subsequently passed onto KMEurop.. Although there's a problem with my theory, my friend's Cicca siren looked just like a Demay R3P just a bit shorter and with a "+" armature in the base (which isn't obvious if you leave the mesh screen on).

So I think that Demay might have taken over Cicca's siren business and refined the sirens over the time. KMEurope probably also succeeded to CEN, but again, that's total speculation.

There's not much info known about PTR and CEN, if we knew more, we could probably piece a timeline..

PTR probably adhered to the sound specifications but didn't follow the baseline schematics.

Of course this is raw insomnia-fueled speculation so maybe I'm completely wrong or right, take this with some "pincettes"

I know that my friend's siren was very similar to a R3P, the base was slightly taller than a CEN and it had the same motor as the Demay R3P though running a bit faster.

Oh and, I remember seeing a very old postal card with a picture of my hometown's city hall, and it shows that the city hall had a different siren on the roof, IF I can find a scan of that picture, I'll try and upload it here so you can see for yourself.

I haven't identified the old siren but it looks like the old Verneuil and Laigneville siren, (short horns with a cone hat), I've only seen this type in Oise.. MAYBE this was a early Chollet-Cicca like you found on Leboncoin, but there's no way to tell unfortunately.

thats super intresting, do the horns twist to the right ? if they twist to the left, it might just be another unknown Demay model, but if they twist to the right... oh my, it could be a France-Moteurs ROP siren. ROP sirens tend to have that cross on the bottom just like CPL double rotor sirens, and if you never heard about CPL, well, i dont know much about them too, tho, it seems they made only one siren, that being the double rotor, and it sounds and looks like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cgw9h5-O8k but, whats intresting is that they decided to put two rotor assemblies instead of one, tho, it does not make it louder at all since its the same motor doing the job for both. many people call this the "french 2t22" but clearly, its a 8 port siren, and it wouldnt even sound the same if it was 10/12 port since 50hz instead of 60hz, so that means that if it was 10/12 port it would just be a Klaxon/Secomak CS8. anyways, maybe that siren from my other post is a late CEN that was made by KMEurop ? i dont know, but anyways, back to the main stuff, oh well, there are many weird ones, but, how did the 10 port sirens and the hornless sirens suceed to pass the specifications ? like, the 10 port CEN sirens, how did they pass ???? anyways, when i get my hands on that Demay R3P i might be able to do more info, but now, its mystery time, theres this siren up in Xonrupt : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkO7PqF0Yqo and, theres the exact same one on top of the city hall of Videauban but in black, and who the hell manufactures these 4 horn sirens ? i assume its CEN, but maybe not. we dont know what sound they make, im going to film the one up in Vidauban for april, the city hall said it works. but if you have any info about that, tell me.

[Darley Champion]

I'm gonna break my post down in multiple parts for this time:

For the horn-less sirens, I'm guessing that it depended on coverage, or that the horns were optional, but however if more coverage was needed, horns would be fitted.

Regarding the 10-port ones, I would say that it was to differentiate signals, the 10 ports being strictly for Civilian/Industrial signaling purposes, and the 8-port ones being tied in the RNA (Reseau National d'Alerte).

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If you're talking about the Cicca siren that my friend owned, I unfortunately don't remember fairly well, I do have pictures of it but I'll have to ask for his permission first if I can send them here. But from memory the horns curved to the right. It did say "Sirenes CICCA - Mot. Asynchrone 50 [unreadable]" on the tag.

The old Gouvieux siren on the other hand? I can't tell, the postal card I mentioned is too grainy and damaged to tell, I can just make out the horns and the cone hat, but not the siren core itself. I have a hunch that this picture was taken shortly after the end of WWII though.

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The KM-1-S in Regusse definitely looks like it's original motor was swapped with a bigger TEFC (totally enclosed, fan cooled) motor, the KM-1-S' motor ran slower than that, though I can't find its exact RPM rating. That or it's running on a variable frequency drive (which would be unlikely).

Just the only data that I can really find on KMSecur's site is that the KM0/KM0S/KM1S have 10 ports and peak at 570Hz.

That somehow reminds me of Ermenonville's 8-port siren, it sounds like it's running on 60Hz, which is pretty.. Unusual.

[Darley Champion]

Re: Xonrupt - I believe this may be a 8-port with a cover on the ports, the weird ring you see being some sort of "chamber" with only four openings.

That's one of the cases where I wish I had a drone or a camera that can zoom very far away ("téléobjectif" or telephoto lens) and could drive up there and get some close shots of the tags if visible, that way we could shed some light on the matter.

[Dorianelevator]

I'm gonna break my post down in multiple parts for this time:

For the horn-less sirens, I'm guessing that it depended on coverage, or that the horns were optional, but however if more coverage was needed, horns would be fitted.

Regarding the 10-port ones, I would say that it was to differentiate signals, the 10 ports being strictly for Civilian/Industrial signaling purposes, and the 8-port ones being tied in the RNA (Reseau National d'Alerte).

-----
If you're talking about the Cicca siren that my friend owned, I unfortunately don't remember fairly well, I do have pictures of it but I'll have to ask for his permission first if I can send them here. But from memory the horns curved to the right. It did say "Sirenes CICCA - Mot. Asynchrone 50 [unreadable]" on the tag.

The old Gouvieux siren on the other hand? I can't tell, the postal card I mentioned is too grainy and damaged to tell, I can just make out the horns and the cone hat, but not the siren core itself. I have a hunch that this picture was taken shortly after the end of WWII though.

-----

The KM-1-S in Regusse definitely looks like it's original motor was swapped with a bigger TEFC (totally enclosed, fan cooled) motor, the KM-1-S' motor ran slower than that, though I can't find its exact RPM rating. That or it's running on a variable frequency drive (which would be unlikely).

Just the only data that I can really find on KMSecur's site is that the KM0/KM0S/KM1S have 10 ports and peak at 570Hz.

That somehow reminds me of Ermenonville's 8-port siren, it sounds like it's running on 60Hz, which is pretty.. Unusual.

i did an oopsie since i forgot to submit a post that i sent, but here im going to try and remake it.
so for the KM1S sirens, they DEFINITELY are 12 ports and not 10. i counted them on the Montmeyan and Régusse sirens, so thats false, tho, the motors for the KM0, KM0-S and KM1-S definitely ran slower, i found a video of what i assume to be a KM0 that has a motor that runs slower, and after doing calculations, it probably runs on 2850rpm instead of 3000rpm. the video is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTtPV2ZmC0w now, apart from the KM0, KM0-S and KM1-S sirens, i also have found a very weird thing, that being, french sirens... WITH SOLENOIDS. im not kidding, they exist, but are a pain to find. there is one in Porte De Bagnolet in Paris, but, seriously, WHY SOLENOIDS ??? probably due to noise complaints so they make it quieter during winddown, but not sure, julien boller also found a NP3S siren from CEN that was equipped with a solenoid on the bottom, which is intresting, i dont remember where it was located tho. the other solenoid sirens looked like Demay sirens, but once again, not sure. tho, have you ever heard of that CPL double rotor siren that i talked about in one of my other posts ? anyways, i am going to paste the exact same section where i talk about this weird CPL thing below right here :

and if you never heard about CPL, well, i dont know much about them too, tho, it seems they made only one siren, that being the double rotor, and it sounds and looks like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cgw9h5-O8k but, whats intresting is that they decided to put two rotor assemblies instead of one, tho, it does not make it louder at all since its the same motor doing the job for both. many people call this the "french 2t22" but clearly, its a 8 port siren, and it wouldnt even sound the same if it was 10/12 port since 50hz instead of 60hz, so that means that if it was 10/12 port it would just be a Klaxon/Secomak CS8.

so apart from that, i found out the problem with the Demay R3P siren, apparently, after a credit card change, the credit card got shipped to my old house (the new owners did not recive it, so i assume they never picked it up) and the bank blocked my old card thinking i would have my new one, so now, i cant buy anything with a card until i fix this problem. so that was why leboncoin was refusing payments. im going to fix this issue and buy it soon. and thats kind of all i have to say.

[Dorianelevator]

I DID IT. i found the diffrence betwheen the KM0 and the KM0-S :

this is a KM0 since it has the smaller motor : https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll ... FwWIZbpwdb, clearly its the tiny one not the big one.
this https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll ... FwWIZbpwdb here is a KM0-S, how can i find it out ? it has a bigger motor than the one in Montmeyan and its not as big as the one shown in the pictures of the KMSécur page, which means this can only be a KM0-S. and for a KM1-S example, the KMSécur page here : https://www.kmsecur.com/km0-km0s-km1s-tech/

dont forget to read my other bigger message if you have not read it yet.

[Dorianelevator]

yes, quick post but, i was looking at julien boller's siren map and found this :
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll ... FwWIZbpwdb
thats DEFINITELY a Chollet/CICCA siren.
then, i found this :
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll ... FwWIZbpwdb
ANOTHER CICCA ? sadly got remplaced with a Pakita LCI3P
then...
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll ... FwWIZbpwdb
YET ANOTHER CICCA ????????????????

dude, so many of them, yet, all of them are labelled as unknown (EDIT : not anymore, i told julien boller about it, and he fixed them.). and the two last ones are identical to the Verneuil siren before it got obliterated by a Pakita LC, sadly, one of these two also got obliterated by a Pakita, but this time, a LCI3P. sad to see these old things perish and then get obliterated by Pakita sirens, its such a shame. but we cant do anything about it.

[Darley Champion]

[snipped for brevity]

Re: KMx sirens — Good thinking there! Those pancake sirens always eluded me for as far as I knew they existed.

Concerning the Solenoid sirens, I did hear about their existence as well (having seen one on a newspaper article) but I had dismissed it as a one-off, I'm guessing it was for making pulsed signals without having to shut the motor down (and thus, limiting wear and tear due to the inrush current), but again this is pure speculation on my part.

CPL sirens, I genuinely have little to no idea why they stacked the rotors like that, maybe they had a stack of dual-head motors to liquidate and some extra rotors/stators that they couldn't find a use for? Or maybe it was a custom order thing.. I did see one many years ago in person, I thought too that it was a custom one-off thing... Guess not.

[Dorianelevator]

(realised i can cut these to save up space like you did so i did)

for the solenoid sirens, they dont do a pulse signal, they shut down the motor like a regular siren, but they do it like the Klaxon/Secomak CS8 sirens, they close the solenoids during winddown, thats literally it.

for the CPL sirens, they are just slightly uncommon, but if you look carefully you can find them.

then the weird things, so first, julien boller released a premiere video with this as the thumbnail :

clearly, this is NOT normal, ABSOLUTELY NOT. tho, atleast he does mention its a rare siren, which is nice. but clearly, its a KM Europ style, but weirdly, it is like a CEN 10 port motor on top, but its 8 ports, so this must be a very very late CEN siren that was made during the switch to KM Europ i assume, but its kinda weird that its a CEN 10 port siren with 8 ports and KM Europ style body, very very weird... (photo from the premiere video's thumbnail)
and finally, for the "pancake" sirens, julien boller managed to find another one up in Roquebrune-Sur-Argens, even tho Roquebrune has a Pakita LC (which probably remplaced a older siren, no photo of the old siren exists tho), they still have that. tho its on top of the firefighters, so i assume its their fire siren, which is pretty logical since it has a higher frequency than the RNA sirens. and finally... comes this absolute piece of junk :
https://www.google.com/maps/@48.1434209 ... ?entry=ttu
like, WHAT EVEN IS THIS ????????????????? never seen such cursed thing, appears to be a CEN siren with a custom cover tho, i am not sure, and then, another siren managed to blast the record for the most cursed siren ever, right there :
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.148048, ... ?entry=ttu
like, 12 horns, motor on bottom, WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THAT ????????????? like seriously, who designed this, like, both of these cursed sirens, they are way too cursed to exist, the first one yes it might just be a cover, but the second one... seriously, so, if you have any information about these, ill be happy to have them.