Robert Gift
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Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:28 pm

q2bman wrote: Speaking as a Police Officer, The vehicle that hit the whatever is a fault.
Yes. But the one who directed the vehicle may also be partially blamed.
q2bman wrote:No insurance co. or lawyer in his right mind will try a case involving a traffic arrow on a private citizen's car representing the wrong direction or causing a traffic hazzard at an emergency.
I'm talking abouthe CORRECT direction. Even then, an attorney may challenge the arrow owner.
Don't set yourself up to even be challenged.

If the WRONG direction, ALL blame may be assigned the arrow owner. Be ready then for a financial enema.
q2bman wrote:The driver, although directed into whatever lane, is responsible for driving at a speed that is safe in the event of any emergency.


Yes. But some drive too fast for conditions. Some get confused.
Then they want to blame others, or share blame, for THEIR carelessness.
As a citizen, who has absolutely no authority, I would never direct anyone anywhere with an arrow on my privately-owned vehicle.
q2bman wrote:Only when directed by a Police Officer would the vehicle's driver not be held liable. You are not intitled to your opinion on what action is safe when directed by an officer. Then officer takes priority over traffic lights, signs, and all elese.
Yes. The officer takes priority and responsibility over all signalling devices and others.
If a mishap occurs, the officer may be invited to court.
His department will providefense for him, and he will be paid for time in court.
A private citizen may have little assistance.

q2bman
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Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:36 pm

Your only paid as a states witness. Not if you're sued. And the F.O.P union provides the defense is your sued but only if you're a mamber. SUPPORT YOUR FOP!!!!!
Q2B or not 2B that is the question.

Robert Gift
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:03 am

q2bman wrote:Your only paid as a states witness. Not if you're sued. And the F.O.P union provides the defense is your sued but only if you're a mamber. SUPPORT YOUR FOP!!!!!
What is FOP?

I am merely a jolly volly.

No one would assist me. I'd be hung out to dry.

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Daniel
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Re: EMERGENCY VEHICLE SIRENS, lights, useage, etc.

Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:58 am

robert gift wrote:
The problem with lightbar lights is thathe white lights blind and confuse people, especially older drivers whose eyes don't recover as well from bright light.
Out here, the Mount Angel police were using white "takedown lights" on the front of their blue rotating light bars and leaving them on as a spotlight during the entire ticket-writing procedure. They were so bright that they were blinding from over a mile away on a straight road, and the bulbs were much brighter than standard high beams. I nearly hit another car head-on, and after an angry phone call to the mayor, they stopped leaving those lights on.I suppose they are effective on people under the influence of something powerful, but they are overkill for the average driver. There is so much light coming into the rear view mirror that it makes it difficult to see how to pull over.

Robert Gift
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Re: EMERGENCY VEHICLE SIRENS, lights, useage, etc.

Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:21 am

Daniel wrote:
robert gift wrote:
The problem with lightbar lights is thathe white lights blind and confuse people, especially older drivers whose eyes don't recover as well from bright light.
Out here, the Mount Angel police were using white "takedown lights" on the front of their blue rotating light bars and leaving them on as a spotlight during the entire ticket-writing procedure. They were so bright that they were blinding from over a mile away on a straight road, and the bulbs were much brighter than standard high beams. I nearly hit another car head-on, and after an angry phone call to the mayor, they stopped leaving those lights on.I suppose they are effective on people under the influence of something powerful, but they are overkill for the average driver. There is so much light coming into the rear view mirror that it makes it difficult to see how to pull over.
My wife and I heard a siren from the west, but could find no emergency vehicle. Was it on another street?
All we could see wasome idiot withis roof fog lights on.
Then, we finally realized it was a fire turck responding with his takedown lights on.
Those lights completely obscured (washed out) the EV lights.

Years earlier, I was driving west at night.
Some dummy left his high beams on.
Several times I briefly flashed my high beams at him to remind him that he was blinding the rest of us.
As he neared, I could finally see the red rotating beacon.
Only then could we tell it was a responding firengine.

Strobe lights have a day and night switch to reduce brightness at night.
Rarely have I ever seen one switched to the lower but more than adequate night power level.

Jim_Ferer
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:33 am

q2bman wrote:Speaking as a Police Officer, The vehicle that hit the whatever is a fault. No insurance co. or lawyer in his right mind will try a case involving a traffic arrow on a private citizen's car representing the wrong direction or causing a traffic hazzard at an emergency. The driver, although directed into whatever lane, is responsible for driving at a speed that is safe in the event of any emergency. Only when directed by a Police Officer would the vehicle's driver not be held liable. You are not intitled to your opinion on what action is safe when directed by an officer. Then officer takes priority over traffic lights, signs, and all elese.
The reason a plaintiff attorney is unlikely to take a case involving a private person with an arrow stick is one of the oldest legal principles there is: you can't get blood out of a rock. Suppose you do get a judgement against Robert or me acting as private persons? What are you going to get? It's a huge myth that peoples houses get taken or their wages garnisheed for life. It's not done. The short story is, plaintiff attorneys don't take cases unless they know where the money is coming from. They want to get paid, and paid now, and not have to go through hundreds of hours of work finding sources of money to satisfy judgements. Better to go after the municipality or the construction company with $150 million in insurance limits.

But what's the proper doctrine for an EMS worker responding? I don't think EMS workers responding in their cars should attempt to redirect traffic. It takes more manpower and likely more lights and control devices than you've got to make a safe diversion. Besides, the medic's got more pressing things to do than set up traffic. His role is to help casualties.

I'd say the medic should use his best lights in a warning mode - wig-wag or similar - dead in front of the accident scene. Follow-on units are the ones that should set up any diversions. The incident commander, through the operations officer, ought to have someone whose sole job at this incident is to set up traffic control. The senior police officer at the scene will give the direction that it's okay to set it up after talking with the incident commander. "No, Sergeant, I think we should do something about the 8,000 gallons of fuming nitric acid leaking out of the truck first before opening a lane." In other words, if there's fire or a hazmat condition, the incident commander is going to be a fire officer. The mop-n-glow guys have their work to do. The police will have overall charge once these other things are cleared.

Where I live, in Connecticut, the state DOT has large orange trucks with crash cushions that patrol I-95, helping stranded motorists and suchlike. They've got big arrow-boards and lots of cones, and at least one responds to all accidents. These guys take the lead in setting up any traffic control. Everybody has a job. All the parties have to work together.

Don't worry about liability directly. If you worry about liability too much you're likely to find it. Instead, worry about the mission and doing it the best way possible.

Enough about me to tell you why I think I know what I'm talking about: I'm civil works safety manager for a big civil works construction company with several hundred million dollars of work in New York and New Jersey. I'm also the risk manager, handling the lawsuits and approving settlements and so on. I have 29 years with my company. I've worked on the Brooklyn, Williamsburg, Queensborough, Triboro, Throg's Neck, Whitestone, and Tappan Zee bridges, the Long Island Expressway and the New Jersey Turnpike.

Robert Gift
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:37 pm

All good points you have made.

Yes. Hopefully my insurance company would come to my aid.

The plaintiff's attorney would probably go after my insurance company, too.
Then they either drop me, if they can, or raise my rates.

Like the idea of the crash-cushion trucks, but how long does it take
one to get on scene, especially if they are stuck in backed-up traffic?

By the time they may gethere, is traffic already so backed up and slow thathere is little risk of high speed impact?
But fender-benders still occur.

I would only use an arrow stick as a flashing light, not directing anyone anywhere.

Thank you for your insights,

Jim_Ferer
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:30 pm

The safest thing to do is always slow the traffic down as much as possible. The intense danger period at the scene itself is often only a minute or two right after the accident happens. More than that, and the traffic is jammed and the danger point moves further and further back from the accident point. Around here, ten minutes after an accident people are hitting the brakes a mile back from the accident scene. That's how quick the traffic backs up.

Caution, though. I'm used to working in a high-density urban/suburban environment. I can see things being very different in a rural environment where traffic is all moving fast and the traffic jam may not build up quickly at all.

Robert Gift
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:39 pm

Yes, we have had citizens killed trying to help at fresh accidents.
It is SO dangerous.

A feweeks ago, 3 people helping another were killed in the center median by a vehicle colliding with another stopped in lane 1 of NB I-225 in Aurora, CO.
 
Saw dramatic video on Real TV? of a vehicle rearending another at high speed on LA's 405. Then another vehicle walloped him.

We need to pay attention ahead and leave more following distance.

Can't understand why those multicar pile-ups can happen in fog and dustorms.

I was driving the ambulance back to quarters on an interstate in Ann Arbor, MI when we came to a very thick fog.

I slowed to 10 mph at most.
If any faster, by the time we saw something, it would be too late to stop before hitting it.

In the passing lane a semi whooshed by at what seemed close to the speed limit.
Was he just above the fog that obscured our vision?!!
If so, how could he see low cars in the fog?
Did he have radar?

He should have been arrested --arrested and jailed for grossly risking the lives of anyone on the road who happened to be in front of him.

I tried to get his license or any identifying marks to report to police but he was gone from view in an instant.

Nonetheless, we called the police and reported his direction.
They couldn't even find him - he had already passed through and out of the area.

My partner and I were stunned?
And amazed we did not come upon him in a horrible accident ahead.

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loudmouth
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:58 pm

truckers have it harder then most people on the road think of all they are respoble of and how many jerks that cut them off or try tailgateing them. alot of people think trucks are jerks .. but EVERY ONE must relize that truckers arnt on the road for fun They are working and trying to make a liveing and now companys want stuff faster and quicker so truckers must drive faster and longer. they cant drive more then 18 hours i belave with out a 4 or 8 hour sleep break its reglations. i have to go but ill add more to this

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